Could Permadeath Work in a commercial MMORPG?
Permadeath was never a tremendously popular feature in MUDs, but it was common enough that it did have a certain following. Some players consider permadeath a vital component of roleplaying, and they feel it adds a significant amount of excitement and tension to a game.
I certainly understand why no commercial MMORPGs have experimented with the concept, but my question is whether it will EVER happen on a commercial MMORPG?
If it does happen, what type of gameplay elements would be required? I would think that to be successful, a permadeath game would have to focus a lot more on the experiences than statistical or gear based character development/advancement. I think for the sake of continuity, such a game would need some sort of achivement or unlocking system where some of the accomplishments of previous characters were either retained in some way or at least recorded in a meaningful manner.
What are your thoughts?
> Joshua Rodman wrote:
> It doesn’t matter if it’s a loss of 40 days of game time or 20 hours.
> If it’s a significant setback enactable non-consensually in a large
> pool of players, it will simply result in sociopath-like behavior.
This I can’t agree with. Games must have the possibility of significant setbacks, or else there is virtually no tension, drama, or emotional connection.
I think you are still looking at this in too much of a traditional WoW-style RPG.
Imagine a large scale strategic game where people are at war. If one nation cannot seize territory from another, that isn’t much of a war. Taking someone’s territory is indeed a very significant “setback” – so much so that it is permanent (at least until it is taken back). But without this kind of potential loss, you don’t have much of a war.
Setback is good. Losing your identity isn’t. Losing your identity because of something someone ELSE did it worse.
I like the idea of PermaDeath in the sense that it puts a natural cap on advancement. It’s quite a large set-back. In current MMO’s it’s nothing but ‘up-up-up’ In a game that’s supposed to not have an end, people are hitting the ‘end’ all the time. It gives other people an opportunity to ‘catch up’. It makes ‘time in game’ something of a liability instead of a pure positive.
However, almost all that’s good about PermaDeath is counter-balanced by the sheer fact that my avatar, my character, my persona is no longer an option to play. You say PD works best in heavy RP situations. It’s exactly those situations that would make it impossible to continue with anything about that character. I can’t have “Hawke” die and then come back with “Hawke2″ and talk to the same people and have the same memories.
I could care less about the ‘hours’ I’ve put into the game. Hopefully the game isn’t about the grind, and level 5 is just as much fun as level 85. However, I do care about the character I’ve built, the relationships I’ve forged, the experiences I’ve had.
A perma-death solution would need to allow me to maintain that. Reincarnation? The same person comes back, but as a lowbie?
But that’s all off-track. Josh is talking about griefing. Permadeath can’t coexist with sociopaths. Idiots will kill you specifically because you can be killed. They’ll ignore all other objectives, priorities, rules of the game and seek out to make you dead for no good reason. If you set up a system with permadeath, you have to include in that system a way to remove sociopaths. The anonymity that comes with a large player-base makes that impossible. In-game punishment means nothing, they’ll just make an Alt. Account level punishment means nothing, they’ll just re-sub. There is no other type of punishment available in a large player-base.
As was mentioned, small populations can protect themselves. The griefer is no longer anonymous. Even with alternate characters and alternate accounts, word will spread quickly and he will be foiled by plain-old communication. In that case, permadeath might work because people would ‘wield it wisely.’ You might die, but it would be in a way you expected and agreed with.
Great point about the loss of identity. I think that is a large reason why the only permadeath ideas that I find palatable are the ones that have basically shifted your identity to some entity that is “above” your character – like the nation state idea I posted here.
is that a conversation I missed? I’ve seen you mention it a couple times in the comments of this post, but I can’t see how being a ‘nation-state’ is anywhere near being the same thing as a character.
Let me rephrase that. I can see how basing your “identity’ in a game on something other than your current avatar is a possibility. Personally I’d have it be something a little more personal. I typically advocate an ‘estate’ (Housing) as being the pivotal device for all advancement and purpose. That could remain after your current avatar died. I see that possibility, but it seems to be fatally insufficient.
In much the same way that I don’t like playing a ’ship’ in space MMO’s, I don’t know if I’d really associate with playing a ‘house’. While it does solve the problem of needing to start over and build an identity completely from scratch, it also somewhat ‘cheapens’ the current avatar; perhaps to the point of it being just a nameless body that you happen to be controlling. (Either that, or it retains so much of the identity of your previous avatar as to remove all purpose the permadeath rule had in the first place.)
I really don’t mean to be ‘Debbie Downer.’ The only reason I was spurred to actually comment is because I think you’ve figured out a possibility. I’m just trying to find the missing pieces to make it work.
I think it was on the front page. There are games like Travian, Ikariam, etc. where your “avatar” is basically your nation. I think both games give everyone their own island nation to rule. It does indeed become an identity for people. Now extrapolate that further and imagine you could also make a hero. This hero could explore around the world, advance the technology of your nation, etc. If that hero was killed, you would have to make a new hero. While there would be some losses, your new hero would benefit from all the technology, gear, etc. that was sent back to the nation.
Another possibility would be if your primary “avatar” was a noble house. Your primary concern would be the continued advancement and development of your noble house’s notoriety, political power, military power, etc. At any one time you would be controlling the head of the house – a lord or lady basically – who could have various abilities. But if that noble died, you would then take over whoever was next in the line of succession. Again, if you had done well in advancing your house’s standing, power, etc. your new lord or lady would benefit.
Another aspect I think would be important in a well designed permadeath game is to put more emphasis on skill rather than time. If mastering a certain type of mini-game or combat mechanic was more about practice and skill than just grinding xp, then losing your hero or lord would not be a big deal. Your skill at fencing, naval battles, etc. would still be retained since the PLAYER (you) would still have those skills.
Very interesting. Current games (even those based soley on character ability) already have that player skill bonus in place. Think about how long it took you to go from level 1 to level 10 the first time. Now think about how long it took the 10th time. ‘Catching back up’ is something that people have done a lot, and it’s amazingly easy.
But that’s mechanical. There are a bunch of ways to make perma-death work on a numerical basis. I’m still mostly worried about the emotional basis though. I can’t help but think that the 3rd time you’ve lost a character that you’ve been emotionally attached to, that you’ll simply just stop making those emotional attachments. You’ll no longer care about your identity and all and the whole thing will become a soulless quest for progress. (Much like it already is for most people.)
I think we’ll table this conversation for now. It’s been dead for 3 weeks. I kind of felt bad for re-awakening it. I really like your website, (I also discovered Wolfshead, which you seem to mention a lot.) I’ll find a current topic to discuss. You’ll probably see me around.
The permadeath discussion comes up cyclically, about every quarter. I don’t see a problem contributing to a thread that already exists, but that’s just me.
Wiqd also has some fun thoughts on permadeath and inheritance models, as does Psychochild.
“so getting killed yourself is exactly what players expect at all times.”
This is an EXTREMELY important point, and why I am so strongly against pvp death consequences. Unless you give your opponents no chance to win at all(thus playing in a very unfair fashion), when you pvp alot you are going to die alot. Generally I expect to die twice for every three players I kill.
Death consequences end up acting as a barrier to entry to pvp. If I lose a 1 minute long fight and have to spend days or weeks recovering from it, I’m not going to get involved in much pvp unless I can guarantee a win by stacking the deck highly unfairly in my favor. The risk vs reward is just too unfavorable otherwise. Frankly, such unfair fights hold very little interest to me.
Marc: I look forward to your input in other discussions!
Outsider: great point about significant consequences not only being a barrier to entry for PvP, but also pushing people towards only being interested in a PvP fight if the odds are grossly stacked in their favor. I think we both know of a game where that happened. But unfortunately, when that game removed PvP consequences, that seemed to ruin and destroy what was left of PvP. Because of the RP nature of that game, people decided it was pointless.
Yeah, I was pretty mind boggled by the way that panned out. Sometimes I just don’t get people, including other pvpers.
Yeah. The consequences made people fearful, but then no consequences made people feel it was pointless. I chalk it up to the fact that too much of Threshold’s PvP became mired in OOC hatred. Too many people looked at PvP as a way to hurt someone in RL rather than some kind of worthwhile and interesting RP plot.
I think the closest answer would be a character along the lines of a Jedi (SG) or Death Knight (WoW).
The account has to unlock the ability, at which point the player can create and play a special character that is subject to permadeath.
I like the idea of creating a legacy for that character (gamer’s sentimental attachment). Character keeps the same surname, so it is as if his first characters son is carrying on the legacy. Some items might be handed down, armor, sword?
The one problem I see is pve vs. pvp. If your character can permanently die in pve, you aren’t going to run dungeons. Often in a raid there are wipes, that are beyond your control. Are you going to risk you characters life for a raid that nets someone else random gear?
How do you handle resurrection spells and revive abilities? I think it could be done well, where it would appeal to more then just the core ‘hardcore’ players, but in most MMO type games it would be permadeath, under certain circumstances.
That is an interesting suggestion Kimco. Basically, you are advocating the creation of special types of characters that are permadeath, and these characters have certain benefits to playing them.
That is very similar to what we have done on Primordiax with the Unblessed. They advance more quickly, and have some interesting roleplay characteristics. In exchange, their characters only have one life. Their life force “burns too brightly”, in effect.
Point well made, I have my own take on this subject over at my very own blog which is titled RuneScape Guide – Give me a comment!
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