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	<title>Comments on: Downtime is Necessary for Socialization</title>
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	<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/downtime-is-necessary-for-socialization.html</link>
	<description>Game Design, MUDs, MMOs, and Virtual Worlds</description>
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		<title>By: Muckbeast</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/downtime-is-necessary-for-socialization.html/comment-page-1#comment-85</link>
		<dc:creator>Muckbeast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:58:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=54#comment-85</guid>
		<description>That is a very interesting example from arcade fighting games. The &quot;forced downtime&quot; of waiting your turn gave people time to hang out, chat, and make friends. 

That&#039;s brilliant that they decided to keep that mechanic in online gameplay.

Wow. That&#039;s an AWESOME example. Thanks Outsider!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is a very interesting example from arcade fighting games. The &#8220;forced downtime&#8221; of waiting your turn gave people time to hang out, chat, and make friends. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s brilliant that they decided to keep that mechanic in online gameplay.</p>
<p>Wow. That&#8217;s an AWESOME example. Thanks Outsider!</p>
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		<title>By: Outsider</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/downtime-is-necessary-for-socialization.html/comment-page-1#comment-83</link>
		<dc:creator>Outsider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:42:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=54#comment-83</guid>
		<description>Another good example of pvp downtime leading to socialization would be Street Fighter 2(and the various other games that tried to milk that cash cow).  The arcade etiquette was that once you lost, you had to go to the back of the line and await your next shot.  Online versions of Street Fighter have kept this etiquette intact, despite the fact they could probably eliminate it for the most part mechanically.  In the online versions, you join a server of 4-6 people, only two people fighting at a time.  The winner keeps fighting, the loser goes to the back of the line.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another good example of pvp downtime leading to socialization would be Street Fighter 2(and the various other games that tried to milk that cash cow).  The arcade etiquette was that once you lost, you had to go to the back of the line and await your next shot.  Online versions of Street Fighter have kept this etiquette intact, despite the fact they could probably eliminate it for the most part mechanically.  In the online versions, you join a server of 4-6 people, only two people fighting at a time.  The winner keeps fighting, the loser goes to the back of the line.</p>
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		<title>By: Outsider</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/downtime-is-necessary-for-socialization.html/comment-page-1#comment-82</link>
		<dc:creator>Outsider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:05:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=54#comment-82</guid>
		<description>Hmm, perhaps I&#039;m defining community differently than you are.  &quot;like the people they play with&quot; is a pretty narrow definition, from my perspective.  I think &quot;like playing with these people&quot; is a better definition.  I don&#039;t have to like somebody in order to like playing with them(mostly because my goal is typically to compete with them in some way).  As a friend of mine would put it &quot;pvpers don&#039;t sit around the campfire holding hands and singing kumbaya&quot;.

That being said though, communities and friendships do develop in FPS games.  There&#039;s still a couple of Soldier of Fortune 2 servers that I can connect to and be immediately recognized, asked where I&#039;ve been, etc, despite the fact I haven&#039;t played that game seriously in about 4 years.  FPS games wouldn&#039;t exist without a community.  Nobody wants to play vs the computer.  Games such as Counterstrike and the Battlefield series have managed to maintain large playerbases for years.  Those playerbases are communities, with many subcommunities.  They develop around clans, servers, specific mods, specific rulesets, forums devoted to the game, etc.  People that play these games casually may not notice them, but the longer you play the more likely you&#039;ll see them and the more likely you&#039;ll become a part of them.

Note that this is more true of fps games with downtime.  I think part of the reason Counterstrike did so well is because of the relationships formed between the players during downtime.  Basically, once you die in Counterstrike, you stay dead until the end of the round, and a round could easily be 5 minutes long.  About all you could do during that time is watch the live players, and chat with the other dead players.  In a instant respawn game like Unreal Tournament, FAR less socializing occurs because you are always running and gunning.  The &quot;dead until the end of the round&quot; style FPS games have utterly dominated instant respawn games over the last few years, and I think the socialization has something to do with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, perhaps I&#8217;m defining community differently than you are.  &#8220;like the people they play with&#8221; is a pretty narrow definition, from my perspective.  I think &#8220;like playing with these people&#8221; is a better definition.  I don&#8217;t have to like somebody in order to like playing with them(mostly because my goal is typically to compete with them in some way).  As a friend of mine would put it &#8220;pvpers don&#8217;t sit around the campfire holding hands and singing kumbaya&#8221;.</p>
<p>That being said though, communities and friendships do develop in FPS games.  There&#8217;s still a couple of Soldier of Fortune 2 servers that I can connect to and be immediately recognized, asked where I&#8217;ve been, etc, despite the fact I haven&#8217;t played that game seriously in about 4 years.  FPS games wouldn&#8217;t exist without a community.  Nobody wants to play vs the computer.  Games such as Counterstrike and the Battlefield series have managed to maintain large playerbases for years.  Those playerbases are communities, with many subcommunities.  They develop around clans, servers, specific mods, specific rulesets, forums devoted to the game, etc.  People that play these games casually may not notice them, but the longer you play the more likely you&#8217;ll see them and the more likely you&#8217;ll become a part of them.</p>
<p>Note that this is more true of fps games with downtime.  I think part of the reason Counterstrike did so well is because of the relationships formed between the players during downtime.  Basically, once you die in Counterstrike, you stay dead until the end of the round, and a round could easily be 5 minutes long.  About all you could do during that time is watch the live players, and chat with the other dead players.  In a instant respawn game like Unreal Tournament, FAR less socializing occurs because you are always running and gunning.  The &#8220;dead until the end of the round&#8221; style FPS games have utterly dominated instant respawn games over the last few years, and I think the socialization has something to do with it.</p>
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		<title>By: Muckbeast</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/downtime-is-necessary-for-socialization.html/comment-page-1#comment-71</link>
		<dc:creator>Muckbeast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 05:34:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=54#comment-71</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve never experienced any of that myself while playing FPSes, and I&#039;ve never heard of people continuing to play an FPS simply because they like the people they play with. The FPS experience is extremely transient, and people move from game to game with extreme fluidity. So I really do not think they are establishing anywhere near the level of socialization that an MMO can and needs to in order to maintain a consistent userbase.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve never experienced any of that myself while playing FPSes, and I&#8217;ve never heard of people continuing to play an FPS simply because they like the people they play with. The FPS experience is extremely transient, and people move from game to game with extreme fluidity. So I really do not think they are establishing anywhere near the level of socialization that an MMO can and needs to in order to maintain a consistent userbase.</p>
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		<title>By: Outsider</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/downtime-is-necessary-for-socialization.html/comment-page-1#comment-65</link>
		<dc:creator>Outsider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=54#comment-65</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think pvp has to be &quot;meaningful&quot; to create this effect.  In my FPS experience, most players that play over a long span of time(weeks, months, or years) wind up playing a few servers over and over again.  A popular FPS server will usually develop a community of some sort.  Players recognize eachother and chat, trash talk, plan, etc, despite the fact that they are only battling for a temporary victory that is basically &quot;meaningless&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think pvp has to be &#8220;meaningful&#8221; to create this effect.  In my FPS experience, most players that play over a long span of time(weeks, months, or years) wind up playing a few servers over and over again.  A popular FPS server will usually develop a community of some sort.  Players recognize eachother and chat, trash talk, plan, etc, despite the fact that they are only battling for a temporary victory that is basically &#8220;meaningless&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Muckbeast</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/downtime-is-necessary-for-socialization.html/comment-page-1#comment-64</link>
		<dc:creator>Muckbeast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:05:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=54#comment-64</guid>
		<description>I agree that meaningful PvP tends to have inherent downtime. And those downtimes can lead to the forging of significant social bonds. I can vidily remember times in DAoC where Milawe and I would manage to get inside a keep with just a few others, and mount a desperate defense. In between waves of attackers, the defenders would discuss our plans and try to figure out how to repel the invaders. The fact that it was a shared experience was also huge for purposes of socialization. When the defense was over, the other people there turned from strangers to close friends, and often long term gaming friendships were immediately born. 

But compare that to say, Left 4 Dead. Most of the time people do not even talk to each other, and when they do it is super basic. When a game ends, everyone goes their own way. Since there is no real effect on any kind of game world, there is no reason for people to hang around.

So the downtime lesson is once again shown through PvP. If you give people time to actually communicate, they will. And the bonds forged will be significant and meaningful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that meaningful PvP tends to have inherent downtime. And those downtimes can lead to the forging of significant social bonds. I can vidily remember times in DAoC where Milawe and I would manage to get inside a keep with just a few others, and mount a desperate defense. In between waves of attackers, the defenders would discuss our plans and try to figure out how to repel the invaders. The fact that it was a shared experience was also huge for purposes of socialization. When the defense was over, the other people there turned from strangers to close friends, and often long term gaming friendships were immediately born. </p>
<p>But compare that to say, Left 4 Dead. Most of the time people do not even talk to each other, and when they do it is super basic. When a game ends, everyone goes their own way. Since there is no real effect on any kind of game world, there is no reason for people to hang around.</p>
<p>So the downtime lesson is once again shown through PvP. If you give people time to actually communicate, they will. And the bonds forged will be significant and meaningful.</p>
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		<title>By: Outsider</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/downtime-is-necessary-for-socialization.html/comment-page-1#comment-63</link>
		<dc:creator>Outsider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 15:46:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=54#comment-63</guid>
		<description>PVP tends to have downtime built into it.  Defending keeps and control points, as you note.  Waiting for respawn is another big one(note this leads to socialization in FPS games that have it as well).  PVP downtime tends to feel pretty natural, as it is either a death consequence, or you are still doing something important despite the fact you aren&#039;t hammering 1,2,3.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PVP tends to have downtime built into it.  Defending keeps and control points, as you note.  Waiting for respawn is another big one(note this leads to socialization in FPS games that have it as well).  PVP downtime tends to feel pretty natural, as it is either a death consequence, or you are still doing something important despite the fact you aren&#8217;t hammering 1,2,3.</p>
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		<title>By: Muckbeast</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/downtime-is-necessary-for-socialization.html/comment-page-1#comment-60</link>
		<dc:creator>Muckbeast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:15:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=54#comment-60</guid>
		<description>I think I see where you are going with this, but I can&#039;t really classify PvP itself as socialization. I think socialization happens if people participating in PvP have some downtime.

PvP by itself doesn&#039;t create the kind of social bonds that will keep you playing a game. In fact, PvP can easily make someone quit, because getting owned by other players is one of the most frustrating things possible - especially if they are truly better and you have no hope of ever getting revenge. FPS games are an example of this. They are basically non-meaningful PvP with no virtual world context to keep people together beyond the actual PvP matches. As a result, there&#039;s little or no socialization unless you join a &quot;clan.&quot;

There is actual socialization that happens around PvP, as players plan and powwow with each other for how they intend to engage in PvP. But even this is really only true in games that have &quot;meaningful&quot; or objective-based PvP.

But PvE triggers that type of socialization, as does raiding. And I wouldn&#039;t call PvE or raiding socialization. 

The fact that socialization can happen before or after a type of activity does not make that activity socialization. 

PvP related socialization can happen is if there is downtime. Like the time you stand in a keep with people waiting for a possible attack. Or the time you spend planning an attack. Or the time you spend waiting for a control point to change so you can attack it. 

I agree that PvP can be a feature that lends itself to socialization - but only if there is mental downtime and a world context to make the PvP matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I see where you are going with this, but I can&#8217;t really classify PvP itself as socialization. I think socialization happens if people participating in PvP have some downtime.</p>
<p>PvP by itself doesn&#8217;t create the kind of social bonds that will keep you playing a game. In fact, PvP can easily make someone quit, because getting owned by other players is one of the most frustrating things possible &#8211; especially if they are truly better and you have no hope of ever getting revenge. FPS games are an example of this. They are basically non-meaningful PvP with no virtual world context to keep people together beyond the actual PvP matches. As a result, there&#8217;s little or no socialization unless you join a &#8220;clan.&#8221;</p>
<p>There is actual socialization that happens around PvP, as players plan and powwow with each other for how they intend to engage in PvP. But even this is really only true in games that have &#8220;meaningful&#8221; or objective-based PvP.</p>
<p>But PvE triggers that type of socialization, as does raiding. And I wouldn&#8217;t call PvE or raiding socialization. </p>
<p>The fact that socialization can happen before or after a type of activity does not make that activity socialization. </p>
<p>PvP related socialization can happen is if there is downtime. Like the time you stand in a keep with people waiting for a possible attack. Or the time you spend planning an attack. Or the time you spend waiting for a control point to change so you can attack it. </p>
<p>I agree that PvP can be a feature that lends itself to socialization &#8211; but only if there is mental downtime and a world context to make the PvP matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Outsider</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/downtime-is-necessary-for-socialization.html/comment-page-1#comment-57</link>
		<dc:creator>Outsider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 06:24:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=54#comment-57</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to submit that PVP is a form of socialization.  It builds rivalries and friendships, and is by definition player to player interaction.  Communities are created to both indulge in it, and to resist it.  I&#039;ve made alot of friends through PVP over the years, in general the only people I associate with in an mmo(with the obvious exception of Threshold, which is an actual RP game) are either people that I know from outside of the game, or with people I enjoyed fighting against/with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to submit that PVP is a form of socialization.  It builds rivalries and friendships, and is by definition player to player interaction.  Communities are created to both indulge in it, and to resist it.  I&#8217;ve made alot of friends through PVP over the years, in general the only people I associate with in an mmo(with the obvious exception of Threshold, which is an actual RP game) are either people that I know from outside of the game, or with people I enjoyed fighting against/with.</p>
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		<title>By: Muckbeast</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/downtime-is-necessary-for-socialization.html/comment-page-1#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator>Muckbeast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 21:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=54#comment-29</guid>
		<description>I think the way all of these different preferences and gameplay styles can be merged is if the MMO industry can return its focus to making virtual WORLDS rather than just monster vendor games. 

You can have all the monster bashing and loot gathering you want in a virtual world. But you also have social activities, non-combat activities, and things that make you feel like a resident of a world. 

In a world, you also don&#039;t feel the same rush to &quot;level cap&quot; and &quot;end game.&quot; Level cap is what, 120 years old, and end game is being buried. Not so amazing. But when the MMO is just a game, why not rush for the finish line?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the way all of these different preferences and gameplay styles can be merged is if the MMO industry can return its focus to making virtual WORLDS rather than just monster vendor games. </p>
<p>You can have all the monster bashing and loot gathering you want in a virtual world. But you also have social activities, non-combat activities, and things that make you feel like a resident of a world. </p>
<p>In a world, you also don&#8217;t feel the same rush to &#8220;level cap&#8221; and &#8220;end game.&#8221; Level cap is what, 120 years old, and end game is being buried. Not so amazing. But when the MMO is just a game, why not rush for the finish line?</p>
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