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	<title>Comments on: MMO Elitism &#8211; A Major Problem for the Industry</title>
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	<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/mmo-elitism-a-major-problem-for-the-industry.html</link>
	<description>Game Design, MUDs, MMOs, and Virtual Worlds</description>
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		<title>By: Aislingi (Jason)</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/mmo-elitism-a-major-problem-for-the-industry.html/comment-page-2#comment-4256</link>
		<dc:creator>Aislingi (Jason)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 08:42:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=291#comment-4256</guid>
		<description>FYI I&#039;ll be posting under the name Aislingi from now on.

You&#039;re quite welcome. People like Cockatron and NotaMoron (Still can&#039;t get over the irony) are the saddest people in gaming. They have nothing else to be proud of. No real power except the feeble skill they developed online.

The sad truth is, most of these elitists (especially in WoW) aren&#039;t even that good. They&#039;re usually competent and, friends with high skill players. They ride a semi-top guild&#039;s coat tails while using their guild name as a pedestal. 
These people consider WoW skill brag-worthy. 

It&#039;s a very &quot;grade school&quot; mentality. Ugly kids pick on uglier kids. Popularity only goes as far, as the walls to the school or, even their current grade. They desperately grab what little power/influence they may have and, abuse it as much as they can.

Meanwhile, the truly good players/people, cultivate more good players, by teaching others and being gracious in victory. 
No one remembers the asshole who insulted them over something trivial like a game.
They do remember the gracious veteran who helped them and pay it forward.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FYI I&#8217;ll be posting under the name Aislingi from now on.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re quite welcome. People like Cockatron and NotaMoron (Still can&#8217;t get over the irony) are the saddest people in gaming. They have nothing else to be proud of. No real power except the feeble skill they developed online.</p>
<p>The sad truth is, most of these elitists (especially in WoW) aren&#8217;t even that good. They&#8217;re usually competent and, friends with high skill players. They ride a semi-top guild&#8217;s coat tails while using their guild name as a pedestal.<br />
These people consider WoW skill brag-worthy. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s a very &#8220;grade school&#8221; mentality. Ugly kids pick on uglier kids. Popularity only goes as far, as the walls to the school or, even their current grade. They desperately grab what little power/influence they may have and, abuse it as much as they can.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, the truly good players/people, cultivate more good players, by teaching others and being gracious in victory.<br />
No one remembers the asshole who insulted them over something trivial like a game.<br />
They do remember the gracious veteran who helped them and pay it forward.</p>
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		<title>By: Muckbeast</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/mmo-elitism-a-major-problem-for-the-industry.html/comment-page-2#comment-3861</link>
		<dc:creator>Muckbeast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:23:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=291#comment-3861</guid>
		<description>Do you really think there are &quot;just as many&quot; friendly raid guilds helping new players kill endgame bosses? I don&#039;t remember encountering ANY on Dalaran - one of the original servers. But I certainly observed zillions of assholes treating &quot;nubs&quot; like they were lepers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you really think there are &#8220;just as many&#8221; friendly raid guilds helping new players kill endgame bosses? I don&#8217;t remember encountering ANY on Dalaran &#8211; one of the original servers. But I certainly observed zillions of assholes treating &#8220;nubs&#8221; like they were lepers.</p>
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		<title>By: rogue guide</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/mmo-elitism-a-major-problem-for-the-industry.html/comment-page-2#comment-3858</link>
		<dc:creator>rogue guide</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Apr 2010 08:02:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=291#comment-3858</guid>
		<description>I read your post and I partly disagree. Although there are many elitists in WoW that love insulting ppl with STFU n00b / get on my level / l2play and don&#039;t want them in their raid groups, there are just as many friendly raid guilds that also want to kill endgame bosses but will gladly help friendly &quot;noobs&quot; and help them to &quot;gear up&quot;.
That&#039;s my experience but I guess everyone makes their own experiences...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read your post and I partly disagree. Although there are many elitists in WoW that love insulting ppl with STFU n00b / get on my level / l2play and don&#8217;t want them in their raid groups, there are just as many friendly raid guilds that also want to kill endgame bosses but will gladly help friendly &#8220;noobs&#8221; and help them to &#8220;gear up&#8221;.<br />
That&#8217;s my experience but I guess everyone makes their own experiences&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Muckbeast</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/mmo-elitism-a-major-problem-for-the-industry.html/comment-page-2#comment-3766</link>
		<dc:creator>Muckbeast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Mar 2010 23:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=291#comment-3766</guid>
		<description>Thanks Jason. It is really convenient to write an article about elitist jerks and then have some actually show up and provide a case study.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Jason. It is really convenient to write an article about elitist jerks and then have some actually show up and provide a case study.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/mmo-elitism-a-major-problem-for-the-industry.html/comment-page-2#comment-3764</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=291#comment-3764</guid>
		<description>I totally agree Muckbeast.
I also had a good laugh at &quot;Cockatron&quot; and NaM&#039;s expense.
Thanks guys, the one who claimed to not be a moron and the guy who called himself such turned out to be the two biggest morons in the room. 
Ahahhaaa. ehh, irony is great.

Grats to Muckbeast for jamming their posts so far back up their asses, that they&#039;re reading the things, with their eyes closed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally agree Muckbeast.<br />
I also had a good laugh at &#8220;Cockatron&#8221; and NaM&#8217;s expense.<br />
Thanks guys, the one who claimed to not be a moron and the guy who called himself such turned out to be the two biggest morons in the room.<br />
Ahahhaaa. ehh, irony is great.</p>
<p>Grats to Muckbeast for jamming their posts so far back up their asses, that they&#8217;re reading the things, with their eyes closed.</p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/mmo-elitism-a-major-problem-for-the-industry.html/comment-page-1#comment-3625</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jan 2010 20:07:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=291#comment-3625</guid>
		<description>i totally agree with what you&#039;re saying, nice blog!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i totally agree with what you&#8217;re saying, nice blog!</p>
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		<title>By: Tesh</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/mmo-elitism-a-major-problem-for-the-industry.html/comment-page-1#comment-3592</link>
		<dc:creator>Tesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 23:32:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=291#comment-3592</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s only a shame in that nobody is picking up the slack.  I don&#039;t mind a diversified market, I lament the lack of options for those who are interested in a well crafted virtual world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s only a shame in that nobody is picking up the slack.  I don&#8217;t mind a diversified market, I lament the lack of options for those who are interested in a well crafted virtual world.</p>
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		<title>By: Muckbeast</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/mmo-elitism-a-major-problem-for-the-industry.html/comment-page-1#comment-3591</link>
		<dc:creator>Muckbeast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 01:11:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=291#comment-3591</guid>
		<description>MMOs were, at one time, supposed to be about the glory and grandeur of a living, breathing world in virtual space. Your avatar was ostensibly a virtual representation of yourself. As time goes on, people don&#039;t even consider their avatar an extension of themselves any longer. MMOs are starting to feel more like RTS games than RPGs, which is a shame.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MMOs were, at one time, supposed to be about the glory and grandeur of a living, breathing world in virtual space. Your avatar was ostensibly a virtual representation of yourself. As time goes on, people don&#8217;t even consider their avatar an extension of themselves any longer. MMOs are starting to feel more like RTS games than RPGs, which is a shame.</p>
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		<title>By: anonyboy</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/mmo-elitism-a-major-problem-for-the-industry.html/comment-page-1#comment-3590</link>
		<dc:creator>anonyboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 23:07:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=291#comment-3590</guid>
		<description>What i absolutely hate about mmo&#039;s now a days is the elitism. People are proud when they can do certain things all by themselves or with less and less people. I thought MMO&#039;s were all about community and an abundance of players and the ability to play with others. I dunno... maybe its just me but if i wanted to &quot;solo&quot; raid bosses or &quot;1 shot noobs&quot; i think Oblivion or some other non Massive playerbase game suits just fine. Honestly its become a huge turn off on gaming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What i absolutely hate about mmo&#8217;s now a days is the elitism. People are proud when they can do certain things all by themselves or with less and less people. I thought MMO&#8217;s were all about community and an abundance of players and the ability to play with others. I dunno&#8230; maybe its just me but if i wanted to &#8220;solo&#8221; raid bosses or &#8220;1 shot noobs&#8221; i think Oblivion or some other non Massive playerbase game suits just fine. Honestly its become a huge turn off on gaming.</p>
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		<title>By: JediOfTheShire</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/game_design/mmo-elitism-a-major-problem-for-the-industry.html/comment-page-1#comment-3269</link>
		<dc:creator>JediOfTheShire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Sep 2009 04:40:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=291#comment-3269</guid>
		<description>I think that the biggest problem is that in any situation with a learning curve there will be people that know what&#039;s going on and people that don&#039;t. Those at the top have no patience for the people at the bottom because they already spent so long learning everything (or getting everything) and THAT is the problem. I think I just repeated what a few of you already said but it&#039;s late...

I seriously, though do not believe that these two kinds of people can even coexist in a game peacefully. Every game will have some people with the patience to deal with the &quot;noobs&quot; but a majority of players will feel as though by learning/looting they have earned the right not to have to be bothered by the &quot;lesser&quot; gamers. I say that to mean that I don&#039;t know that this problem is actually even avoidable. Just like the slow kid gets picked last for pickup games of football, so do the unlearned become shunned by the veterans.

RPGs have their roots in narrative, and as a rule a narrative has a progression. To eliminate the progression is to eliminate the Roleplaying and you&#039;re left with just a game. I would argue that it&#039;s easier to get people to play a progressing game than it is to get people to play a static one. Puzzle pirates might be great, but you&#039;ll never get the WoW addicts to play it because they can&#039;t get tons of loot to make themselves those &quot;Gods among men&quot; that they are ever striving to become. 

&quot;So what!&quot; you say? We cannot forget that it&#039;s all about the money. Developers are not going to spend their time creating something that no one will play. Even your ideas have to follow the money train- where there is cash to be earned your creative nature can be set free, but stray too far from what people will buy in a hurry and you have to rethink your planning.

Unfortunately the Elitism sells. I can&#039;t stand it but I&#039;m still playing WoW (it hurts to say, believe me) because it&#039;s the only thing the guys&#039;ll play with me (God forbid we play some Diplomacy! (Or Sword of the Stars, that&#039;s my new favorite)) and until everyone like me that would like to see something better grows a pair of standards and drops their subscription until something better comes out the change is not going to happen.

Doom and gloom. I know. This may sound strange but I might not be right, that&#039;s just the way my brain percieves the whole mess this late at night.

P.S. It&#039;s good to be back for a little while and see that you guys are still going, things were a little dry when I checked back in a couple times after I left. My blog isn&#039;t active, but my status as a reader is (at least partially).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that the biggest problem is that in any situation with a learning curve there will be people that know what&#8217;s going on and people that don&#8217;t. Those at the top have no patience for the people at the bottom because they already spent so long learning everything (or getting everything) and THAT is the problem. I think I just repeated what a few of you already said but it&#8217;s late&#8230;</p>
<p>I seriously, though do not believe that these two kinds of people can even coexist in a game peacefully. Every game will have some people with the patience to deal with the &#8220;noobs&#8221; but a majority of players will feel as though by learning/looting they have earned the right not to have to be bothered by the &#8220;lesser&#8221; gamers. I say that to mean that I don&#8217;t know that this problem is actually even avoidable. Just like the slow kid gets picked last for pickup games of football, so do the unlearned become shunned by the veterans.</p>
<p>RPGs have their roots in narrative, and as a rule a narrative has a progression. To eliminate the progression is to eliminate the Roleplaying and you&#8217;re left with just a game. I would argue that it&#8217;s easier to get people to play a progressing game than it is to get people to play a static one. Puzzle pirates might be great, but you&#8217;ll never get the WoW addicts to play it because they can&#8217;t get tons of loot to make themselves those &#8220;Gods among men&#8221; that they are ever striving to become. </p>
<p>&#8220;So what!&#8221; you say? We cannot forget that it&#8217;s all about the money. Developers are not going to spend their time creating something that no one will play. Even your ideas have to follow the money train- where there is cash to be earned your creative nature can be set free, but stray too far from what people will buy in a hurry and you have to rethink your planning.</p>
<p>Unfortunately the Elitism sells. I can&#8217;t stand it but I&#8217;m still playing WoW (it hurts to say, believe me) because it&#8217;s the only thing the guys&#8217;ll play with me (God forbid we play some Diplomacy! (Or Sword of the Stars, that&#8217;s my new favorite)) and until everyone like me that would like to see something better grows a pair of standards and drops their subscription until something better comes out the change is not going to happen.</p>
<p>Doom and gloom. I know. This may sound strange but I might not be right, that&#8217;s just the way my brain percieves the whole mess this late at night.</p>
<p>P.S. It&#8217;s good to be back for a little while and see that you guys are still going, things were a little dry when I checked back in a couple times after I left. My blog isn&#8217;t active, but my status as a reader is (at least partially).</p>
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