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	<title>Comments on: Suck it down console owners! PC gets Left 4 Dead DLC for free, but you gotta pay!</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/gaming_industry/suck-it-down-console-owners-pc-gets-left-4-dead-dlc-for-free-but-you-gotta-pay.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/gaming_industry/suck-it-down-console-owners-pc-gets-left-4-dead-dlc-for-free-but-you-gotta-pay.html</link>
	<description>Game Design, MUDs, MMOs, and Virtual Worlds</description>
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		<title>By: Muckbeast</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/gaming_industry/suck-it-down-console-owners-pc-gets-left-4-dead-dlc-for-free-but-you-gotta-pay.html/comment-page-1#comment-4143</link>
		<dc:creator>Muckbeast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jun 2010 17:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=271#comment-4143</guid>
		<description>Really? Cheating is bad even on Steam?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really? Cheating is bad even on Steam?</p>
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		<title>By: Bertram Merideth</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/gaming_industry/suck-it-down-console-owners-pc-gets-left-4-dead-dlc-for-free-but-you-gotta-pay.html/comment-page-1#comment-4124</link>
		<dc:creator>Bertram Merideth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jun 2010 18:00:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=271#comment-4124</guid>
		<description>The one thing that kills this game for me are the cheaters. It seems like every server I join there&#039;s at least one person on the team who is cheating. I don&#039;t know or what they are doing but I keep getting owned.

 And away I go...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The one thing that kills this game for me are the cheaters. It seems like every server I join there&#8217;s at least one person on the team who is cheating. I don&#8217;t know or what they are doing but I keep getting owned.</p>
<p> And away I go&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Outsider</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/gaming_industry/suck-it-down-console-owners-pc-gets-left-4-dead-dlc-for-free-but-you-gotta-pay.html/comment-page-1#comment-3150</link>
		<dc:creator>Outsider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 23:22:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=271#comment-3150</guid>
		<description>Yeah, that sounds pretty bogus.  Hopefully the games Microsoft is selling over Xbox live won&#039;t have similar issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, that sounds pretty bogus.  Hopefully the games Microsoft is selling over Xbox live won&#8217;t have similar issues.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Muckbeast</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/gaming_industry/suck-it-down-console-owners-pc-gets-left-4-dead-dlc-for-free-but-you-gotta-pay.html/comment-page-1#comment-3148</link>
		<dc:creator>Muckbeast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 17:12:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=271#comment-3148</guid>
		<description>Steam is a neat idea, and their specials make for some great deals, but at least 20% of the time I try to load Left 4 Dead the Steam verification servers are down or overloaded and I can&#039;t play.

In my opinion, that&#039;s a total fail.

It also means the games cannot be played at all if you are offline, and that&#039;s a giant lose. There should be some # of times you can play between verifications to make up for the shortfall.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steam is a neat idea, and their specials make for some great deals, but at least 20% of the time I try to load Left 4 Dead the Steam verification servers are down or overloaded and I can&#8217;t play.</p>
<p>In my opinion, that&#8217;s a total fail.</p>
<p>It also means the games cannot be played at all if you are offline, and that&#8217;s a giant lose. There should be some # of times you can play between verifications to make up for the shortfall.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Outsider</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/gaming_industry/suck-it-down-console-owners-pc-gets-left-4-dead-dlc-for-free-but-you-gotta-pay.html/comment-page-1#comment-3144</link>
		<dc:creator>Outsider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 21:19:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=271#comment-3144</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I&#039;m one of those people that&#039;ll buy maybe 3 or so 60 dollar games a year, but am definitely willing to buy alot at the 20 dollar price point.  I&#039;ve probably bought more used games for my 360 in the last 6 months than I have bought pc games in the last 3 years.

While I haven&#039;t gotten into it yet, digital distribution looks like a win for me too.  I constantly hear how good the sales are on Steam, I just haven&#039;t checked it out yet.  Microsoft is soon going to be allowing purchase of full 360 games(not arcade games, the same stuff you&#039;d buy off the shelf at EBgames) over Xbox Live.  Apparently, the prices are going to be around 20-30 dollars American. That sounds like a really good deal, though I don&#039;t think they&#039;ll be putting new releases in there right away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I&#8217;m one of those people that&#8217;ll buy maybe 3 or so 60 dollar games a year, but am definitely willing to buy alot at the 20 dollar price point.  I&#8217;ve probably bought more used games for my 360 in the last 6 months than I have bought pc games in the last 3 years.</p>
<p>While I haven&#8217;t gotten into it yet, digital distribution looks like a win for me too.  I constantly hear how good the sales are on Steam, I just haven&#8217;t checked it out yet.  Microsoft is soon going to be allowing purchase of full 360 games(not arcade games, the same stuff you&#8217;d buy off the shelf at EBgames) over Xbox Live.  Apparently, the prices are going to be around 20-30 dollars American. That sounds like a really good deal, though I don&#8217;t think they&#8217;ll be putting new releases in there right away.</p>
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		<title>By: Muckbeast</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/gaming_industry/suck-it-down-console-owners-pc-gets-left-4-dead-dlc-for-free-but-you-gotta-pay.html/comment-page-1#comment-3142</link>
		<dc:creator>Muckbeast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 19:06:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=271#comment-3142</guid>
		<description>It will be funny if the console companies keep crapping themselves over used games, and in the process kill one of the biggest things that is giving them such great sales. The whole used game phenomenon is a huge reason people are willing to shell out $60 for a console game. They know if it sucks, they can at least trade it in for $20-30 cash or credit towards a new game. 

It also means some people who would NEVER buy their games at least buy them used. 

There are three general price categories for people who buy console games:

1) The person willing to spend $60 for a game buys it retail and never gives it another thought.

2) The person willing to spend $40 for a game, buys it new for $60 with the knowledge they can get $20 back if they sell it used.

3) The person willing to spend $20 for a game waits for it to be used, subsidizing the people from #2.

This has accomplished a really amazing thing. You are now selling the exact same product for $60, $40, and $20, and as a result you are getting customers in all three of those price points. Producers of goods are ALWAYS trying to figure out ways how to sell the same product to different people for different prices. It is extremely hard. 

Console game companies should be excited that they have backed into this, and just reap the rewards. Instead, they look at people in groups #2 and #3 as freeloaders. The truth is, they will never convert a high percentage of those people to group #1 no matter what they do. But they sure as heck can drive those people out of the console market entirely if they start cracking down on used games.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It will be funny if the console companies keep crapping themselves over used games, and in the process kill one of the biggest things that is giving them such great sales. The whole used game phenomenon is a huge reason people are willing to shell out $60 for a console game. They know if it sucks, they can at least trade it in for $20-30 cash or credit towards a new game. </p>
<p>It also means some people who would NEVER buy their games at least buy them used. </p>
<p>There are three general price categories for people who buy console games:</p>
<p>1) The person willing to spend $60 for a game buys it retail and never gives it another thought.</p>
<p>2) The person willing to spend $40 for a game, buys it new for $60 with the knowledge they can get $20 back if they sell it used.</p>
<p>3) The person willing to spend $20 for a game waits for it to be used, subsidizing the people from #2.</p>
<p>This has accomplished a really amazing thing. You are now selling the exact same product for $60, $40, and $20, and as a result you are getting customers in all three of those price points. Producers of goods are ALWAYS trying to figure out ways how to sell the same product to different people for different prices. It is extremely hard. </p>
<p>Console game companies should be excited that they have backed into this, and just reap the rewards. Instead, they look at people in groups #2 and #3 as freeloaders. The truth is, they will never convert a high percentage of those people to group #1 no matter what they do. But they sure as heck can drive those people out of the console market entirely if they start cracking down on used games.</p>
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		<title>By: Outsider</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/gaming_industry/suck-it-down-console-owners-pc-gets-left-4-dead-dlc-for-free-but-you-gotta-pay.html/comment-page-1#comment-3138</link>
		<dc:creator>Outsider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 20:34:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=271#comment-3138</guid>
		<description>Another advantage consoles have over pc is a lack of cheating.  For the most part, the cheaters you see on console are exploiters rather than hackers.  Exploits are far easier for devs to deal with than hacks.  

You&#039;ll never see an aimbot or a wallhack on xbox live.  Probably won&#039;t see it on PSN either, though the playstation systems have shown some weakness in the hacking area(there&#039;s some drama about Modern Warfare for ps3 being hacked recently).  Even if somebody does manage to hack on xbox live, once they get banned, they&#039;ve lost some cash and will have to spend more cash to get back into it.  That acts as a deterrent, I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another advantage consoles have over pc is a lack of cheating.  For the most part, the cheaters you see on console are exploiters rather than hackers.  Exploits are far easier for devs to deal with than hacks.  </p>
<p>You&#8217;ll never see an aimbot or a wallhack on xbox live.  Probably won&#8217;t see it on PSN either, though the playstation systems have shown some weakness in the hacking area(there&#8217;s some drama about Modern Warfare for ps3 being hacked recently).  Even if somebody does manage to hack on xbox live, once they get banned, they&#8217;ve lost some cash and will have to spend more cash to get back into it.  That acts as a deterrent, I think.</p>
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		<title>By: Outsider</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/gaming_industry/suck-it-down-console-owners-pc-gets-left-4-dead-dlc-for-free-but-you-gotta-pay.html/comment-page-1#comment-3137</link>
		<dc:creator>Outsider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 20:13:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=271#comment-3137</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I remember the Epic dlc drama back in the day.  Same thing as what&#039;s happening now.

Microsoft is trying to create a business model where people are able to keep spending on games after they buy them.  When games put out major content for free, that undermines the model.  The paying for dlc model is actually a really good idea for gaming companies, as it makes them more money.  It&#039;s particularly good for console game companies, due to the used game market.  There&#039;s alot of drama about game developers not making any money when a used game is sold.  If they actually charge for their dlc though, they might actually make some money off of that used copy of the game.

I buy nearly all of my 360 games used.  It&#039;s drastically cheaper than buying new games.  I&#039;ve actually bought dlc for a few of them.  It still winds up being cheaper than buying the pc game and getting free content.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I remember the Epic dlc drama back in the day.  Same thing as what&#8217;s happening now.</p>
<p>Microsoft is trying to create a business model where people are able to keep spending on games after they buy them.  When games put out major content for free, that undermines the model.  The paying for dlc model is actually a really good idea for gaming companies, as it makes them more money.  It&#8217;s particularly good for console game companies, due to the used game market.  There&#8217;s alot of drama about game developers not making any money when a used game is sold.  If they actually charge for their dlc though, they might actually make some money off of that used copy of the game.</p>
<p>I buy nearly all of my 360 games used.  It&#8217;s drastically cheaper than buying new games.  I&#8217;ve actually bought dlc for a few of them.  It still winds up being cheaper than buying the pc game and getting free content.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Muckbeast</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/gaming_industry/suck-it-down-console-owners-pc-gets-left-4-dead-dlc-for-free-but-you-gotta-pay.html/comment-page-1#comment-3136</link>
		<dc:creator>Muckbeast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 16:52:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=271#comment-3136</guid>
		<description>Keep in mind there is a very significant portion (most likely the majority) of the customer base for games that has no interest in buying or selling used games. Given that, PC games are generally cheaper by $10-20 per game typically. 

For hard core gamers, however, the used game aspect of console games is ENORMOUS. GINORMOUS. FRIGGIN HUGE. I believe that the ability to buy/sell used console games, along with rental options (video stores, gamefly, etc.) have played the biggest role in curtailing console game piracy. Ok, I&#039;m getting off topic.

So what&#039;s up with Microsoft forcing Valve to charge? Are they doing this because they don&#039;t want there to be a &quot;race to the bottom&quot; between developers, where they constantly slash prices on DLCs, to the extent that then charging for DLCs becomes &quot;lame&quot;? Are they doing this to protect the payed DLC market?

I really don&#039;t see mods ever hitting it big on the console. They go against the culture of the platform (reliable, consistent, always-works-the-same). Furthermore, while mods are a lot of fun, they require quite a bit of legwork on the part of the user. You have to browse sites for them, read descriptions, download, try some out, install, uninstall, tweak ini or config options, etc. This process will be pretty unwieldy on a console without desk + mouse + keyboard. While a few of the big, super popular mods might make it onto the console, that is going to be pretty limited.

I think it is important to note that while retail box PC game sales are lower than console sales, overall PC game revenue crushes console. Sales stats that always get reported only include retail sales, and not digital downloads or online subscriptions.

Total video game sales in 2008 was approximately $22 billion. Of that, $12 billion was from online PC games, and another $1 billion from offline PC Games. So $13 billion of the total $22 billion market is on the PC (approximately 60% of the market). 

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keep in mind there is a very significant portion (most likely the majority) of the customer base for games that has no interest in buying or selling used games. Given that, PC games are generally cheaper by $10-20 per game typically. </p>
<p>For hard core gamers, however, the used game aspect of console games is ENORMOUS. GINORMOUS. FRIGGIN HUGE. I believe that the ability to buy/sell used console games, along with rental options (video stores, gamefly, etc.) have played the biggest role in curtailing console game piracy. Ok, I&#8217;m getting off topic.</p>
<p>So what&#8217;s up with Microsoft forcing Valve to charge? Are they doing this because they don&#8217;t want there to be a &#8220;race to the bottom&#8221; between developers, where they constantly slash prices on DLCs, to the extent that then charging for DLCs becomes &#8220;lame&#8221;? Are they doing this to protect the payed DLC market?</p>
<p>I really don&#8217;t see mods ever hitting it big on the console. They go against the culture of the platform (reliable, consistent, always-works-the-same). Furthermore, while mods are a lot of fun, they require quite a bit of legwork on the part of the user. You have to browse sites for them, read descriptions, download, try some out, install, uninstall, tweak ini or config options, etc. This process will be pretty unwieldy on a console without desk + mouse + keyboard. While a few of the big, super popular mods might make it onto the console, that is going to be pretty limited.</p>
<p>I think it is important to note that while retail box PC game sales are lower than console sales, overall PC game revenue crushes console. Sales stats that always get reported only include retail sales, and not digital downloads or online subscriptions.</p>
<p>Total video game sales in 2008 was approximately $22 billion. Of that, $12 billion was from online PC games, and another $1 billion from offline PC Games. So $13 billion of the total $22 billion market is on the PC (approximately 60% of the market).</p>
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		<title>By: Sentinel</title>
		<link>http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/gaming_industry/suck-it-down-console-owners-pc-gets-left-4-dead-dlc-for-free-but-you-gotta-pay.html/comment-page-1#comment-3135</link>
		<dc:creator>Sentinel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 15:58:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frogdice.com/muckbeast/?p=271#comment-3135</guid>
		<description>Games are definitely not cheaper on PC. Just try to sell your PC game back after you&#039;re done with it. Consoles inherently have certain advantages and what few they lack are coming their way eventually (I&#039;m looking at you, Mods).

Obviously, I&#039;d rather have the update for free, but if the content is compelling then I will shell out the $7.00. If it&#039;s not, then I won&#039;t worry about it - certainly, I won&#039;t rush out to buy the PC version.

Sentinel</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Games are definitely not cheaper on PC. Just try to sell your PC game back after you&#8217;re done with it. Consoles inherently have certain advantages and what few they lack are coming their way eventually (I&#8217;m looking at you, Mods).</p>
<p>Obviously, I&#8217;d rather have the update for free, but if the content is compelling then I will shell out the $7.00. If it&#8217;s not, then I won&#8217;t worry about it &#8211; certainly, I won&#8217;t rush out to buy the PC version.</p>
<p>Sentinel</p>
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